So you know

[solarbird]

Stolen from kathrynt:

Gary Heavin, who owns Curves, contributes 10% of the profits of that business to organizations allied with Operation Save America, the successor to Operation Rescue. OSA and OR are fairly militant anti-abortion organizations that, among other things, promote the soundly discredited notion that having an abortion increases the risk of breast cancer.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/04/20/DDGLU4ULFV1.DTL

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/decline-pp-central-tx.htm

Comments

[banner.livejournal.com]

But having an abortion does increase the chance of miscarriage, and if you have enough of them (usually 3) you can't carry a child to term any more. At least not without medical assistance.
With all the other forms of birth control available these days, including the morning after pill, you'd think even abortion advocates would be pushing for women to use other alternatives and to leave abortion as a 'last resort', and to avoid getting into the position of needing one.

[solarbird]

I see you buy into the "abortion pusher" argument of the anti-abortion crowd. I know a lot of people who have had abortions. None of them did it for convenience purposes.

[banner.livejournal.com]

Pusher? No, but I have seen a lot of people wear it like a 'badge of honor'. And I know a lot of folks who've had them for convenience purposes, and several who did it out of spite against their husbands.

[poetry-lady.livejournal.com]

I'd be curious to see the scientific studies on the number of abortions and the ability to carry to term. I've never seen that anywhere outside a right-to-life website. Can you point me to any?

And there are plenty of women out there who are advocates for birth control as opposed to abortion. However, we're being thwarted by people pushing their religious agenda via abstinence-only programs, thereby increasing the likelihood of unprotected sex, and unintended pregnancy. Until the religious fundamentalists' influence on sexuality is decresed, we will not have a chance at pushing an aggressive birth control, not abortion mindset. You CANNOT have one without the other, and since reversible sterilization is still science fiction, we're at where we're at.

As a personal stance, I firmly believe in birth control (and in a couple instances, SELF control). I have NEVER had a pregnancy scare in my entire life, and I made damn sure I didn't because while I believe in the choice of abortion, I do not know if I could chose it myself. So I chose to not put myself in that position, by always using birth control (and properly) or self control.

[banner.livejournal.com]

With all of the legal protections surrounding abortion records, I don't think it is possible to do such a study. My information comes from informal data gathering I did when I worked in the medical profession after having two separate conversations with women I knew who had had multiple abortions and were now having trouble carrying a baby to term. One told me flat out her Doctor had told her it was do to the number of abortions she had (four in like a six year period).
I have run across a half dozen others who have confided in me the same issue, all of which said they hadn't known it to be a risk. Some doctors have told me it is a risk.

FYI I don't go to pro or anti abortion websites, rallies, etc. Nor do I really hold with either group or either side. And I'm not looking to get into a debate on moral, ethical, or legal, issues surrounding it. I think that all gets done enough by enough other people. I only mentioned something I have personally observed.

[poetry-lady.livejournal.com]

They do other studies, I don't see why they couldn't do one for this. How else did they come up with the alleged connection between abortion and breast cancer?

And while I'm not saying that these women's trouble carrying to term wasn't caused by multiple abortions, you're only hearing the "can'ts". You don't hear about the ones who don't have problems.

I tend to want scientific facts (hence, asking about studies) rather than any sort of propaganda from either side. But then, as I've said, my bias is towards extreme responsibility in birth control, and having better alternatives for MEN, too. All but one of the birth control methods available are up to the woman to use, and use properly. Men have one, and it's one they don't like. So they get caught in that whole "get pregnant, get child support" trap (see my response below). It's interesting that there aren't more men clamoring for better alternatives to birth control--I've heard enough whining about the child support issue.

And as as side question, I wonder if the "abortion as convenient birth control" situation will be helped or hindered by RU486--what are ITS effects in multiple-use scenarios. (Mind you, I find the whole "abortion as birth control thing" horrible, stupid, wasteful, and wrong.) I know someone who did that, and it totally changed my opinion of them; up to that point, I had thought they were an intelligent person, but I'm sorry, birth control is easier, cheaper, and far less traumatic to the body.

[cafiorello.livejournal.com]

We do.

And when that fails, safe and legal abortion needs to be possible for backup.

Forced pregnancy is slavery.
Cathy

[banner.livejournal.com]

Forced pregnancy is slavery
I have to take issue with this line, sorry. If forced pregnency is slavery, than what is forced child support? Which I might point out goes on for 18 to 21 years depending on the state you live in.

[cafiorello.livejournal.com]

Theft.

Not slavery. When they force you to give over your very body, blood, flesh, and bone, risking your health and your life, that's slavery.

Not that forced child support when you don't have a say in the child's being born is right, but it's not even in the same league. If they could force you to donate an organ to your child (it's been tested in court; they can't), then we could talk.
Cathy

[banner.livejournal.com]

They send you to jail if you don't pay. I wouldn't call that theft.

And your organ donation comparison is not what I would call a fair one.

[cafiorello.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes--then, armed robbery.

And in what way is the organ donation analogy not fair?
Cathy

[banner.livejournal.com]

Because when you lose an organ it's gone, when you have a baby, your body doesn't lose anything. Also your body is made to have babies, it's a natural event and not major surgery. Removing an organ is major surgery, and not natural.

Also, you analogy is still wrong, it's far closer to slavery than your pregnacy one.

[poetry-lady.livejournal.com]

I agree with cafiorello; theft is a good word.

However, I have a lot of problems with these idiot men who think that they should be let off the hook just because a woman lied to them about birth control. Have some balls, take some responsibility. Wear a freakin' condom. If you play the game, you have to be prepared to pay the consequences.

I ALSO have a problem with these idiot women who do stupid shit like that. But again, it's a cultural/socialization thing. And until women are truly taught to be independent, to not see getting knocked up and getting some man to "take care of you and baby" as a valid lifestyle choice, we're going to have shit like this.

I personally would like to see money being spent on reversible sterilization techniques, and then have everyone have the surgery at puberty. That way, abortion problem solved, forced child support problem solved; a guy would know it couldn't be him if he was still sterile, and it wouldn't matter what the gal's status was. EVERY child should be a wanted child; no child should have to live with the stigma of being an "accident".

[cafiorello.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! Perfect! If both parties had to actively do something to get a child together, that would solve a *lot* of problems.
Cathy

[banner.livejournal.com]

Umm they do, it's called Sex

:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[brombear.livejournal.com]

I am SOOOO getting sick and tired of groups spreading lies and other messages just to ram their point of view across. Abortion is one of those topics that NO one can really agree on. I tend to think that my views are middle of the road, and unless someone shows me cold, hard scientific, fact and not theorem, then, and only then...will I consider changing my views. 8/ Sorry...just my 2 cents worth...