oh really now

[solarbird]

I got more links as I'm getting read for Norwescon omg:

Courtesy caladri: AIPAC, the primary right-wing Israel lobby in the US, has "persuaded more than three-quarters of the members of the US House of Representatives to sign a letter calling for an end to public criticism of Israel".

A New York court has struck down genetic patents:

The American Civil Liberties Union and the Public Patent Foundation at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York joined with individual patients and medical organizations to challenge the patents last May: they argued that genes, products of nature, fall outside of the realm of things that can be patented. The patents, they argued, stifle research and innovation and limit testing options.

John Robb at Global Guerrillas expects it to be overturned due to endemic corruption, but is pleasantly surprised at the ruling.

The type of corruption involved, of course, is this kind of corporatism, with the Washington Post playing boosterism for a merger of private corporations and government domestic internal security functions. Mike McConnell, who splits his time between government appointments (as W. Bush's Director of National Intelligence) and private-industry lobbyist (working for NSA/CIA contractor Booz Allen) is carrying the message. Mr. McConnell wants private-company spying and intelligence spying to be "seamless" and comprehensive - and, of course, beyond accountability - in such a way that conveniently boosts the profit margins of the companies for which he works. Dwight Eisenhower saw it coming, even as he helped set it up to fight the Cold War, but, that never seems to help, much.

Comments

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Any other formal ally the U.S. has a major disagreement with, it usually keeps it behind closed doors as a matter of basic courtesy. It's what allies do. The problem here isn't either that the White House is getting public with its snubs or that AIPAC (and Congress) have objections, the problem is the astonishign number of Americans who seem to believe that Israel has an obligation to treat the U.S. as its ally, while the U.S. has no obligation whatsoever to treat Israel likewise.

[solarbird]

Presumably you mean like the way the Israeli government badly embarrassed VP Joe Biden on his Middle East trip a few months ago? A little tit-for-tat is entirely normal in alliances, don't you think?

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

I should hope so. I'm glad Israel is beginning to be willing to give some. Hadn't heard about the Biden incident, but if so, it pleases me very much; thanks for telling me.

[avram]

You're glad Israel publicly embarrassed the vice-president of its most important ally? What happened to the principle you had been espousing a mere 16 hours earlier, that keeping these sorts of things "behind closed doors as a matter of basic courtesy [is] what allies do"?

(And actually, the Biden incident was mere weeks ago, not months.)

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

America's been embarrassing Israel whenever it's politically expedient to do so, in defiance of that principle, for years. I'm delighted to see it get a little of its own treatment back. I'd be even happier if neither of them embarrassed each other in public, but evidently, that isn't likely anytime soon.

[avram]

America's been embarrassing Israel whenever it's politically expedient to do so [...] for years.

Oh, I know, shameful. For example, it must have been tremendously embarrassing to Israel to have engaged in secret terrorist attacks on American and British targets in Egypt in 1953. And when Israel suborned a US Naval intelligence analyst who sold the Israeli government classified American intelligence documents, well, it must have terribly embarrassed Israel when that became public. And the Israeli attack on the US ship during the Six Day War must have been awfully embarrassing as well. And the harassment and life-threatening abuse of US Marines on peace-keeping duty by Israeli soldiers in Lebanon in 1983 must have embarrassed Israel too.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Actually, except for Pollard, I doubt it did, and that only because the handler who took that on his own initiative did it clumsily. Chutzpah has been the favorite virtue of secret services around the world for millennia, and Jewish ones even more so.

Which means I'll drop this discussion here, because you've successfully persuaded me that however the U.S. behaves, Israel's not likely to care very much. So I don't have to care either.

[loopback.livejournal.com]

Really? can you give some examples of where we have 'embarrassed' Israel because it is politically expedient?

Because in my memory in contemporary history, the US has generally kowtowed to Israel at virtually every turn in an attempt to keep Israel happy and AIPAC and the very strong pro-israel lobby/population happy. And rather than the US, it is frequently Israel, as the mouse that roared, telling the US to shut up and let Israel run their country their way. While still expecting cash, weapons, and the US to stand by them as an Ally.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

All alliances involve each country running their own country their own way, and each country also coming to the other's aid in times of war. That's what a traditional military and political alliance is.

[avram]

Any other formal ally the U.S. has a major disagreement with, it usually keeps it behind closed doors as a matter of basic courtesy.

You mean like we did with France during the build-up to the Iraq War?

Or, come to think of it, the way Israel treated the Turkish ambassador recently?

the problem is the astonishign number of Americans who seem to believe that Israel has an obligation to treat the U.S. as its ally, while the U.S. has no obligation whatsoever to treat Israel likewise.

You mean, aside from the couple of billion dollars of military aid we give them each year?

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Turkey and Israel haven't had an alliance treaty last I knew, only a cooperation treaty. As for the French, you saw how the rest of the world regarded us for that. It was no more appropriate then; I'd have hoped we would have learned better by now.

[avram]

Appropriateness aside, our treatment of France 7 or 8 years ago handily refutes your claim that "Any other formal ally the U.S. has a major disagreement with, it usually keeps it behind closed doors as a matter of basic courtesy. It's what allies do."

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

So you've already said. And the world rightfully condemned us for it.

[avram]

Oh yeah, and then there was the use of forged British passports by Israeli assassins killing a Hamas member in Dubai this January. Add in the Turkish ambassador, and the Joe Biden incident, and that's three important allies the Israeli government has embarrassed just in the first three months of this year.

[cow.livejournal.com]

In addition to all the examples above: not to mention, Hillary Clinton going around Canada and repeatedly objecting to current Canadian policies to the media (http://www2.macleans.ca/tag/hillary-clinton/), just this week... on Arctic policy, on the Afghanistan pullout, on maternal health (which I agree with her on, but still, this was a very public way to disagree).

Very public disagreements with a major ally.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

All right. So it sounds like this is simply the most recent couple of administrations have decided that it's no longer part of an alliance, any alliance, to keep your disagreements private where possible, and they're not bothering anymore. I disagree with this as a matter of etiquette, but I can deal with it so long as it's across the board, and it does seem to be. Thanks for the information.