All this has happened before, and it will all happen again

[solarbird]

It occurred to me while reading this New York Times article that the saddest and probably the most ironic thing about the whole current cultural/political situation is that...

...the fundamentalist movement in the United States is trying to make - working really hard to make - the exact same overarching decisions that Arabic Islam, in the form of the Ottoman Empire, made in the 17th and 18th centuries, in response to surprisingly similar external pressures.

Those decisions - a hard turn from elements of secularism and towards fundamentalism, a fleeing from sciences/engineering/math in favour of religious studies, a popular enforcement of religious impulses towards "traditional" (men rule/women submit) business and family structures, first reference to god for everything - were, ultimately, a disasterous mistake, and led to the collapse of a functional, powerful, enlightened Arabic civilisation, and to the mess they've been in most of this and the last centuries.

And they're trying to do the exact same things. "This time, it'll work!" Yeah, sure. Wash, rinse, repeat.

(If you don't have a NY Times login, you can use nyreader / bogon if you want.)

Comments

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

Despite being very, VERY strongly cisgendered, I find myself moving more and more towards a gender-neutral characterization of the world whenever possible, partly in reaction to shit like this. It creeps me right the fuck out.

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

The things that I don't have good history for are this: When these horrible transitions have happened, what opposition was present? What happened to these people when it was over?

My suspicion is that heads rolled and they ceased to be a non-problem.

Therefore:
* Is this stoppable?
* If this is not stoppable, what is the appropriate action?
* What is the poison in the system that lets this actually happen?

[laputain.livejournal.com]

Well, technically speaking, the Ottomans were Turks ruling over a large Arab (et. al.) population. When the Empire finally collapsed in 1919, the Turks went hard-the-other-way and became militant secularist, desperate to catch up with the capitalist West.

However, the Arab nations then came under the tutelage of Britain and France, who had a vested interest in keeping them backwards and docile. So, they put the arrogant bullshit feudal monarchies in place which are *still there* in most of the Arab states. As in India, imperialism pretends to be advancing the subject nations, while in actuality holding them back.

That kind of thing inevitably comes back to haunt you.

[solarbird]

I was unclear; I didn't mean to imply that it was top-down, from the imperial administration itself. It was more of a cultural shift, pushed by religious leaders, and it predates the events you're talking about by some time.

[solarbird]

Is this stoppable?
I sure hope so. On the hopeful side is that the American political system has a habit of stepping right up to the brink, and then stepping back. I think we're on that brink. Hopefully we will now step back. (And by "step," I mean "fight the people pushing this so hard that they are finally forced back, inch by painful inch.")

If this is not stoppable, what is the appropriate action?
For me? For you? Fleeing. Seriously. If I thought this was over, I'd be gone.

What is the poison in the system that lets this actually happen?
That, I can't guess at. I don't think it's so much the system as it is the culture. It's by no means unique to American culture.

[laputain.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course. What you were really asking is why don't the fundies learn from history? Obviously because their beliefs are true, and America really is going to be the greatest nation forever and ever, so that makes the situation totally different from the Ottoman days. *rolls eyes*

[laputain.livejournal.com]

I have an answer as to what the problem with the system is. But since it contains the words "class", "imperialism" and "revolution", most Americans would hunt me with pitchforks for even trying to explain it. :)

I will say, though, that you can't divorce "system" from "culture". The system gives birth to the culture.

[banner.livejournal.com]

Umm, the extreme fundies may want this, but that's about it. If you think either the Republican or Democratic parties want this, I think you're way off the track.

[solarbird]

Ah, Marxism. How quaint! ^_^

In term of "system," I admit that I was using that in an unduly restrictive sense. I don't think it's per se' part of the structure of the American governmental system.

[solarbird]

Where did I talk about political parties? I'm talking about social/political movements. In this case, the fundamentalist movement.

I do think that the fundamentalists have a fairly firm grip on the Republican party at this point. But they don't have sole control - though most of that is due to the remnants of the GOP in places like New England and people who have been in office for a long, long time.

I certainly hope that we will see non-fundamentalist Republicans making more noise against, say, the purest whipped bullshit frappe' which is "scientific creationism" and "intelligent design." I would like to think we'd have seen resistance to fundamentalist demands in other areas, as well. I look forward, in fact, to seeing these reactions.

I haven't seen them yet, really, though there're clear signs that the demand to disband the 9th Circuit Court and impeach six members of the US Supreme Court have gone over... poorly. So that's pleasant. We'll see what happens next, regardless.

[solarbird]

Not forever and ever, of course. The theoconservative version of American Exceptionalism means that the United States is the chosen country of God, that it enjoys special protection because of that, but only so long as it continues to be a moral country. A significant portion of the fear they manage to generate amoungst their believers comes from the worry that "loss of morality" has cost the United States the special protection of Jehovah - and in that context, the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell commentary blaming people like me for the 9/11 attacks make sense. They #define my existence as immoral and wrong; America does not punish me for existing enough; therefore, God gets angry and drops the holy shield.

This may sound like a silly oversimplification, but it's not. I'm paraphrasing, and maybe personalising a bit - but I'm not simplifying.

[solarbird]

Oh, and it's not forever and ever because 1: it can be lost (see previous entry), and 2: the second coming of Jesus will end time as we know it, bringing on the Kingdom of the Lord on Earth, which will unite all countries under the direct Rule of God.

Literally.

[banner.livejournal.com]

I do think that the fundamentalists have a fairly firm grip on the Republican party at this point.
Nope, I don't think they have any grasp at all. They're just wagging the tail and claiming they can wag the dog.

I do want to see quite a few of the justices on the Ninth circus thrown out. Declaring that the 2nd amendment isn't an individual right? Pulease! The crap that comes out of that court gets more bizarre every year. It should be disbanded and restocked with people who don't make shit up.

And I would like to see those judges on the Supreme Court who think that European law trumps the constitution impeached as well. We fled there, we don't want their laws here.

There are a lot of people pissed at Judges, rightly so, Judges have gone beyond thier place and are starting to create laws, which is not their job, that's Congresses' job. The fundies see this and want judges who will go their way and are starting to push for it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the coming crisis.

Me, I want judges who will follow the constitution strickly, not make stuff up, not 're-interpret' it, not look to European laws. Just look to the constitution and fuck all else. Then we can lean on Congress to redress wrongs and fix things, like it was originally intended. Because I know if we don't reign the judges in now, one day we're gonna end up with them running the show, and no one with a brain wants fundies in that position or some of the current wild eyed socialists either.


Now I know alot of people are going to scream about abortion, and sodomy, and marriage. Well the plain fact and logic of the matter is: The Congress should be making those laws, NOT the courts. Why? Because the courts may blow west now, but they'll be blowing south another day, and do we want a handful of people making the laws of the entire country? Your worried about fundie judges, I'm worried about the current crop AND fundie judges.

I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but something in the way we appoint judges needs to change. Maybe something to force them to stick to the constitution and keep out of everything else? I don't know.

[solarbird]

Nope, I don't think they have any grasp at all. They're just wagging the tail and claiming they can wag the dog.
Can you provide me with some evidence of that? Some indicator?

Honest question. I don't see it. I think you underestimate their power.

[wrog]

actually, as I understand it, Islam and the Arabic civilization went wrong quite a bit earlier. Originally they had a council of sorts to make revisions to the Quran and Islamic Law as needed to keep things flexible and cope with changing times. But somewhere around 1300 they decided, "Okay, we're all done now; it's perfect," the council disbanded, all of the religious texts got frozen in place, and from then on it was all downhill.

[(Anonymous)]

I see a great deal of the inside of my church, and I agree with Banner that the fundamentalists' political power is an illusion. A functioning church does not care much about such political issues and the members of the congregations have their own views.

I admit that I hang around the liberal side of the Lutheran church, but I do attend the rallies of the Baltimore Regional Initiative for Developing Genuine Equality (name chosen largely for the acronym, BRIDGE), which has a good number of black conservative churches in it. The main political concerns of those churches are increasing availablilty of affordable housing and improving the schools. The so-called moral values issues of the Republicans are unimportant to us.

Fundamentalism is not dead, but its strength is feeble compared to other religious movements, such as Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven Life revival. Without large numbers of faithful believers, the political constituency of fundamentalist demagogues is a hollow shell.

As to your original issue about fundamentalists destroying the schools, we homeschooled our daughters until middle school and then enrolled them. This gave them a major culture shock. The main obstacle to their middle-school and high-school education was the lazy and disrespectful attitude of many of their classmates, which limited how effectively the teachers could teach. If American students had more traditional, fundamentalist attitudes about respect, it would improve American education. (I confess I am guessing here about respect. Even when young, my daughters thought like adults, so they did not give respect to adults merely because they were adult. They respected their teachers who were seriously trying to teach.)

Erin Schram